As far as best places to start… try the LeanKanban Yahoo! Group.

Mike

Very interesting post on LeanSSC. I have been slowly incorporating more and more of this material in the agile classes that I teach, and I too have seen that this may be enough of a separate subject to warrant its own training path. With that being said, I should also say that I am very much a newbie to Kanban (which is a little strange, as my major in college was Japanese, so it has been interesting to read some Kanban sites in Japanese.)

I look forward to a possible opportunity to participate in the discussion, so if you have any pointers on the best place to start looking, let me know.

BTW, great blog, it is one of the few I read regularly.

Bill
(Met you in Orlando, not sure you if remember.)

I really appreciate your earlier posts and this reply. (It is hard via blog posting, but I assume F2F has to wait until Chicago in August.)

I love continuum’s, I am not sure I followed yours on methods – what is the axis? Guidance? I am glad to see you draw such an inclusive list. I would certainly call RUP iterative and thus a part of this agile world. Of course like CMMI most people just seemed to use it in phases. With all that documentation and guidance, it kind of shot a bullet in its foot. (Good solid Double Dean)

Back to LeanSSC, I hear this group wants to build the collective tent and grow it large. I hear this group say it is different enough to hold up its own pole under this large tent. I also hear this tent pole wants certification under it. (I am starting to picture the multiple large tent poles in the main terminal at Denver International.) That model is holding together for me.

This was helpful to me. I still have a ton of questions about philosophy and approach, but that can wait. The model for scaling quickly has to be simple and open. I look forward to learning more from the LeanSSC. The next three months of the start will tell us all if the the whole group sees the big top with multiple poles or not.

Thanks for your perspective on the LeanSSC.

Regards,
Ryan

Good to hear from you. Thanks for reading my blog. I was wondering if I had any fans in Boulder

These issues are difficult to hash out over blog posts. Much better suited to face to face communication. Is agile a domain specific implementation of lean? Sure. Is lean more than Scrum? Sure. At the end of the day we are ALL trying to make teams more productive and improve our collective existence.

I really don't care much what we call it.

Personally… I have chosen not to become part of the Scrum establishment. While a member of the Scrum Alliance and a CSM… Scrum is not the end all be all. There is a bit too much Scrumdamentalism going on right now… lot's of talk in Orlando about Scrum-but.

I fall more into the Scrum-and camp. Scrum has its place… and it is a good and valid place. Ken and Jeff have made a significant contribution by taking Scrum so far forward. My problem is that so many people I talk to want to check their brain at the door and feel constrained by Scrum rather than liberated by Scrum.

Scrum has a place in a continuum of practices that for me goes something like Crystal > XP > Scrum > Kanban/Lean > AUP > DSDM > RUP. Each has a place in a given context. Without situationally specific context… the discussion becomes meaningless.

So… why not build out a lean body of knowledge within that Scrum Alliance or the Agile Alliance? Personally, I would not be opposed to either. I think that many of these thought leaders go back a while and that many of them just don't see eye to eye on many things. Talking about a combined organization is a non-starter in many ways.

It seems to me after being on the APLN board, a part of the Agile Alliance, a part of the Scrum alliance, and now a part of the LeanSSC… not very many of us are interested in creating a big tent. I am hoping that the LeanSSC will create a big tent.

To the best of my knowledge the Agile Alliance is not interested in pursuing certification. The Scrum alliance has certification… but I fundamentally disagree that our industry should limit itself to Scrum… Scrum is not the exclusive body of agile knowledge. APLN is not interested in certification. DSDM has certification but no one outside Europe cares.

I can only speak for myself personally… I want to be a part of Scrum and XP and DSDM and the Agile Alliance and the APLN. I want to be a part of the LeanSSC. I'd love to think we are all trying to move the collective needle. I am not interested in methodology wars or pissing contests.

I want to be able to go help customers with as much knowledge as I can muster. The more we know… the more we can meet them where they are… the more we can build kick-ass software organizations where people love to come to work.

At the point the LeanSSC defines itself as the alternative to Scrum… or XP… or anything… the organization will have lost its way.

Thanks for writing… I appreciate your comments.

Mike

I agree with your point regarding Lean and Agile building into one body of knowledge. I disagree with Lean building upon Agile. I see Agile as domain specific implementation of Lean in the software context. In addition, I see the limitations in scaling with regard to Scrum.

I was surprised to read so much in the LeanSSC about “more than Scrum.” It did not seem that is what the conference was about? Jean and other attendees did not bring that message back.

If you believe Lean and Agile should be one body of knowledge, why did the LeanSSC group decide not to do this a Program under the Agile Alliance? (I am curious what Paul C would say about this?) Seems like all the LeanSSC members are presenting or sponsoring Agile 2009?

Seems there is a huge risk to “method wars of Lean versus Scrum” while the market is seeking more standardization. What is LeanSSC planning to do reduce this risk? The Scrum community has done a ton of work in scaling Scrum.

Perplexed in Boulder:)
Ryan